Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty.

Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons.

Date:: 1894

Credit: Minutes of evidence taken by the Royal Commissioners appointed to consider the draft charter for the proposed Gresham University in London ... / presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of Her Majesty. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

1231/1410 (page 1225)

$am quite content to leave it to the Commissioners, But with respect to the Royal College of Science, I think the difficulty I have just mentioned arises, because it is maintained generally for the training ot elementary teachers throughout the country, and General Donnelly has told you that it is not an establishment under the management of its own governing body ; that the Education Department will insist upon keeping a strong hand and control over it. Therefore it appears to me, in the sense that I have mentioned, not to be a place for a large and liberal education, and its introduction into a University governing body would be inconsistent with the character of a University. 25.552. {Rev. Canon Browne.) Would you asso- ciate with your University the evening classes at King's College ?—The evening classes at King's College would be under the general influence of the University just as the University extension classes would be. 25.553. But only to that extent, because their idea was that they had better prepare for the examining University and not the resident University ?—I think they could do both. As I said just now, if it were felt that a certain amount of study in the University extension classes is to save, a man a year of residence for his degree it would be reasonable that a proper amount of study in the King's College evening classes should save a man a certain amount of collegiate study for his degree. So in our Theological Classes, two years' evening classes of theological study exempt a man from one year of his morning classes. 25.554. I thought in your definition of what should and what should not be associated with the University you carefully excluded the evening classes at King's College, for which you give your Associateship ?—I was not speaking of classes which should be associated with the University, or helped by the University, but institutions which should be on the Governing Body of the University, which, under Sir George Young's form would be schools of the University. 25.555. Institutions where teaching of the Uni versity type was given. Your definition of teaching of the University type excluded, to my mind at least, teaching like that at the evening classes at King's College where there are people only coming three or four hours in the evening to their work ?—It is excluding them in the sense that the evening depart- ment at King's College is not one of the Faculties of the College. 25.556. The question is, would they be entitled to present themselves for the degree of the resident University or not ?—Not unless they have spent their final two years in the day classes. 25.557. Then your position would be different from what it is now. They can get their Associate- ship now without going into the day classes ?—Yes. 25.558. That will be altered?—I do not know whether it will be altered, but they will not get their degree that way. 25.559. {Professor SidgwicJt.) I rather thought that the words which Sir George Young introduced would leave, it open to the University. They are the words introduced in Chapter III. that the University shall have power to grant certificates of proficiency. I thought it was entirely leaving it open to the Univer- sity to give any scope it chose ?—That is so. 25.560. Then it need not. require the two years ?— No. 25.561. {Rev. Canon Browne.) But would you put them and the University extension people so far on the same footing ?—On a similar footing. We might argue that a shorter time at the evening classes at King's College might be allowed. 25,561«. {Professor Sidgwick.) Would you have any objection to including in the Faculty some of the distinguished teachers of the sciences at the Royal College even if the whole institution did not come in. That is a suggestion which has been made which you may have seen in General Donnelly's evidence. He thought that the whole institution could hardly form a o 72200. part of the University, but he thought it would be an Rev H. advantage if the University recognised some of the Wace, D.l teachers, included them in the Faculty, and allowed 9^ lg9 their lecture to count for the degree. Does that ' arrangement seem to you one that might be adopted ? —You mean to say that some of the work of the Royal College of Science might be accepted by the University as work for a degree. 25.562. Yes. The argument for it would be as has been urged upon us by one or two of those teachers that they have in some respects exceptional advantages in the way of apparatus, and they are likely to have? —1 think it is a fine point rather. I think it would be better if they could be put on in the form of lecturers appointed by the University rather than as lecturers of the schools, because the University is not recognising external schools as such. 25.563. I suppose the question which would be practically important would be whether their lectures should be among the lectures which were a part of the course for the degree of the teaching University. You see the first Clause of Chapter HI. says the University shall have power to confer degrees on all who have pursued a regular course of study. Then Sir George Young proposes the words instead of in a College in the University — under the regulations of the University. I think that, the changed clause taken in connection with the concluding clause would give the Gresham University power to make the lectures of the lecturers appointed independently of the college a part of the course of study ?—They would have to be sure that the lecturers had adequate means for teaching. 25.564. But you would agree to leave the Uni- versity free in that respect, free to admit lecturers as capable for the University ?—I see no objection to it at present. 25.565. And as I understand you, you see no objec- tion to schools in one Faculty only, and no objection to having a law school on the same terms ?—No. What I care for is to have the governing force of the University Collegiate. With regard to the question of professors, it seems to me that nothing could be more injurious to the collegiate life I am speaking of, than for there to be an external authority coming down and saying, This man is a University pro- fesor and This man is not. They might come down to King's College and pick out half a dozen men and say You are University professors, and the others are of a different class. That would entirely destroy the discipline of the college. It. would be practically introducing an authority superseding that of the Council itself. It has occurred to me that there may be one, and only one way of escape with regard to that question of University professors. I have hesitation upon the matter because I have not discussed it very much of late with Sir George Young, and although we are, almost always in agreement, I am not quite sure whether he goes as far as I am half inclined to go. But I think there is great force in what one of the witnesses says; that it is a. dis- advantage when a man has no career in London as a professor beyond that of a regular teacher in a College, and that there are advantages in a limited number of men being confined to the very highest work and the very highest lecturing. For instance, to take the case of a man like Professor Silvester, at Oxford. I do not suppose there are half a dozen students who could possibly attend him, or get any advantage from going to him, and yet there can be no doubt that his position is a very great advantage to the University. That might have been done to my mind if we had still the co-operation of the Gresham Col- lege, and if you could have some men at some centre like Gresham College expressly required to give only half a dozen lectures a year, and expressly required to differentiate their work in that way. You have courses of lectures at the Royal College of Physicians and at the Royal College of Surgeons in which a very few distinguished men investigate their subjects with a thoroughness only capable of being appreciated by the 7Q '$