Appendix to Second report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, February to March, 1907.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on Vivisection.
Date:
1907
Catalogue details

Licence: In copyright

Credit: Appendix to Second report of the Commissioners : minutes of evidence, February to March, 1907. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by Royal College of Physicians, London. The original may be consulted at Royal College of Physicians, London.

    16/110 (page 6)
    Mr. W. H. Power, C.B., F.K.S. •20 Feb. 1907 just like any other investigators. They are liable to visits by the Home Office Inspector ; they are visited in exactly the same way ; he observes what they are doing, and asks them the why and wherefore of what- ' ever he may see to be going on. 4357. Do you say as your own personal opinion that experiments on living animals are absolutely necessary for Local Government Board purposes ?—Yes, we could not do without them. 4358. Why do you say that ?—We get a number of questions sent up to us, as I was informing the Chair- man just now, and we have to do these experiments as it were under International obligations; and in a great many other cases we could not say yes or no as to the nature of the disease unless we did submit it to test in the animal body. I may say that one object of the Board has been the identification of disease, if possible, without resort to animal inoculation. Accordingly we have done a great deal of work in the direction of observing, in a variety of culture media, and divergencies in mode of growth and the like under varying conditions of suspected micro- organisms, in the hope, I will not say exactly the expectation, for I am afraid it has not been very fully realised, of being able to readily identify disease and differentiate one disease from another without actual resort to inoculation of the animal body. 4359. Why have you delegated your powers to piece-work gentlemen, to these distinguished gentle- men, instead of the Local Government Board carrying them out themselves?—In the first place our medical inspectors would not have time for it, and we have not a scientific investigatory staff apart from our medical inspectors who are permanent salaried officers. Under the piece-work system the Board always desire to employ for work of this kind men specially competent to carry it out; they are men with special training in that direction. 4360. You do not think that your own people are of equal calibre to those gentlemen whom you employ ?— On an average, not in this particular ; that is, they have not since appointment under the Board con- tinued to give day by day attention to work of this sort. 4361. With regard to the antitoxin remedy for diphtheria, do you consider that has been of undoubted curative value ?—Unquestionably. 4362. Have you any statistics which you could put in which go to prove that ?—We have not collected the statistics, but the Metropolitan Asylums Board have done so, and they have had a large body of evidence which seems to prove incontestably that if the diph- theria antitoxin is used in the early days of diphtheria it makes an enormous difference in the case mortality of the disease. It reduces what was from 25 to 30 per cent, down to from 5 to 10 per cent. 4363. You can send me some statistics or refer me to some statistics which will carry out wrhat you say ?— Yes, the Metropolitan Asylums Board have issued and published very voluminous statistics on the subject. 4364. Do you consider that the success of a remedy on the body of a lower animal ensures its success on the human body ?—Not altogether; and it is for that reason that one has some hesitation in applying directly what one learns on the guinea-pig to the human being, and therefore, as I was saying, in the matter of this new plague prophylactic we decided, having obtained it, to try in the first instance on a monkey. 4365. Do you say that the only value of a test as a curative or prophylactic is an experiment on a living animal ?—If it satisfactorily protects a lower animal we are at liberty to infer that an adequate and proper dose would protect also the human being, and generally that is found to be the case. 4366. Take Haffkine’s experiments at Bombay, for instance. Do you claim a. success for those experi- ments?—I do not know whether Haffkine tested his material in Bombay in the same way in which we tested ours in this country ; but certainly its effect in protect- ing the rat would lead us to infer considerable efficacy in the case of a human being, apportioning the dose to the larger body ; though I believe, as a matter of fact, they do not in India inject in absolute amount so much into the human body as we did into the rat. 4367. And you think that because it acted on the rat with success it therefore must act with success on the human body ?—The inference was that probably it would do so ; and in India it was tried on the human body, and was found very satisfactory. At any rate, it was the best thing that wasi going. We are hoping, as I was saying just now, that we may have got something which perhaps is even more satisfactory. 4368. You were saying that when you discovered fhis valuable remedy either as a curative or a prophy- lactic, you let the local authorities know that you had discovered something which would be of use in com- bating any particular disease, as, for instance, diph- theria or cholera; you send it to them, and you say, “ We have got a remedy that will assist in this respect ” ?—It is not quite in that way. The proba- bility is that a prophylactic or a remedy has been advo- cated from many sources before we actually test it; it is pressed on our notice, and we are urged to put it at the disposal of local authorities. The Board then con- sider that they are under obligation to test its value before they go as far as that, and it is only after we have tested the value of something that is actually on the market that we are able sometimes to say this does seem to be of use, and we put some of it at the disposal of local authorities. 4369. And when, as in the case of Haffkine’s remedy, you think you have got something better than Haff- kine’s, what do you do ; do you write out and say, “ We think we have got something better than Haffkine’s, so we withdraw our former circular ” ? The Board have not yet dealt with that matter, but I fancy that the Board would probably put a portion of it at the dis- posal of local authorities along with Haffkine’s, and they would be allowed to choose which they would have. We should like to see it, of course, tested alongside with Haffkine’s. 4370. You want to work out your old stock of Haff- kine’s before you work this new prophylactic ?—No, not exactly that; one has, however, considerable misgivings that the Haffkine remedy will not keep indefinitely. I find myself compelled to test it every few months to see that it has lost none of its virtue. Some of that which we made a good many years ago we found on subsequently testing it later was not as potent as it had been, and that we discarded. On the other hand, we found that some of equal age was as potent as be- fore. 4371. In short, you do not really think much of your Haffkine stuff?—It was the best thing to be had for a very long time. 4372. You thought it was ?—And in India they con- sider that it has had a very considerable effect in saving life. 4373. But now you do not think much of it?—No, I would not say that. I should use it now if we had plague in this country. 4374. Sooner than the other ?—Personally, of course, I should prefer the other. If I had to be inoculated against plague, I should prefer the new remedy, but I would not force it on everybody until we know more about it. 4375. (Sir William Church.) I think the Commis- sion hardly appreciate, perhaps, the position of the Local Government Board, judging by some questions which you have been asked. It is no part of the duty of the Local Government Board, is it, to try to discover remedies ?—No, it is not our business to discover remedies. 4376. What you do is you endeavour to find out from the reports of your inspectors what is the effect of remedies which have been put upon the market, so that you may recommend that those which appear to have value should be used, arid not those which have none ?—Very largely ; but at the same time, we should, perhaps, make some original investigation towards getting a preventive. For instance, I think it is quite possible that the Board might engage in some such in- vestigations in regard of cerebro-spinal fever, which is now apprehended as coming upon us. Probably there will be a great demand before long for a prophylactic and for remedies for the disease, and it is quite possible that a good many very doubtful things may be put upon the market, and we probably shall have to test them, and while we are doing that, we might make some investigations of our own to see whether we could make anything of any value as a remedy. 4377. Just following up what Lord Selby asked you, the gentlemen whom you employ to do special work are completely under the control of the Home Office?— Completely, just as any other workers would be. 4378. Those whom you nominate to do that work